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Hello Everythone. You should be familiar with the course in BB now. I hope all of you are in the process of studying the discipline theorists. This is the major component of Module 1. Please post any questions or concerns that you have in blogger so that we can all benefit. Thanks, Splichal
The relationship between respect and discipline is that it takes discipline to respect. For example if a teacher sets out rules for the classroom the students who obey those rules or disciplined they are showing respect towards their teacher and also fellow classmates.
We cannot demand our students to respect us. That is one sure way of not having them respect us. Respect is earned, and it's earned both ways. This is where we set up our classroom rules and involve the students in the process of establishing rules for the class. For the students to respect us, we need to be fair in our discipline, we need to treat them as individuals and listen to them. Give the students the opportunity to share their life with us.
Correlation implies that there are independent and dependent variables. In this case it is presumed that the independent is discipline and the dependent is respect. This is not the same as cause an effect, but rather that the independent can explain a certain percentage of the dependent.
If one looks at the etymology of the words; discipline comes from the Latin Disciple, which meant student, follower or pupil, and discipline was the instruction of the disciple, respect also comes from the Latin and means to look back at one. So, originally discipline was the instruction of the student and respect was the student looking back at or giving his attention to the instructor.
Because all children do not necessarily want to be educated, mandatory education created an environment where respect was not given by all students and effectual instruction evolved to include the concept of correction or chastisement.
Today however there are progressive philosophies that embrace the notion that mutual respect can bring about effectual instruction through cooperation with the students, without the need for a punitive or consequential structure.
I agree with Christine D. I had bought this movie Freedom Writers and have watched it a couple times and one scene about respect stood out to me. The students were saying, "just because you are a teacher, you think you can just get respect, how do we know we can trust you". Just because we are adults and teachers we shouldn't just demand it is a two-way street. To get respect, you give it.
Christine, that was exactly what I was looking for. Respect is EARNED, not Demanded. Good thoughts. We have to earn the respect of our students and they have to earn our respect. It is a two-way street. Thanks for joining us from Ashlee's class. Welcome.
Grant, we aren't talking old school philosophy or historical meanings of the words here. I am saying this, if a student disrespects a teacher in the classroom by breaking rules or not following instructions, this typically revolves around the respect the student has for the teacher. With a foundation of respect which is mutually earned, discipline becomes a non-issue.
Someone in the class please give another example. Are we on the right track here or am I way off base. Think about how you train a hunting dog for instance - - how do you do it? How does the dog begin to obey commands? How does the dog know WHO to listen to? Splichal
The saying is that respect is earned. Discipline is given. One is positive, while the other is negative. Discipline can earn respect, but can also be disrespectful. It is all in the application in which they are applied. Consistency is key and expectations of both the teacher and the student are set upfront and made known to both parties.
Hey Ashleigh. Thanks for joining us from Ashlee's class. You made a very good point. "making it known to all." If students don't know what to expect, then they will be lost in all aspects, not just discipline.
Ashleigh does make a great point,that everyone needs to know "upfront" what the expectations are in your classroom and the school. Although it may be common sense/courtesy not to cut in line, students still need to be taught not to do this. They should know the why they shouldn't, not just the "don't do it." Then they should know what to expect if they do cut in line and to follow through with your discipline. In a class I observed last semester that the teacher was not consistent with her discipline. Some students were able to "get away" with things that others were not. It's difficult to respect your teacher when they are not treating everyone fairly.
I agree with both Ashleigh and Christine. I do think we would all be surprised at the number of people (not just children) that do not know common courtesy. We cannot expect children to adhere to discipline if it is not consistent. Teachers must be so careful to not "play favorites" in regards to classroom discipline. Raising 4 children of my own, its fair to say they are very quick to pick up on an unfair balance. And when that occurs, their respect for the authority figure goes out the window.
O.K. Dr. Splichal. I didn't mean to be hyperbolic but I didn't know the definitions at use. I thought it was instructive to know that "discipline" did not originally include the concept of consequences, and that it now seems to include those methods needed to obtain attention or respect from the students. Punishment or consequences would seem to me to be only a part of discipline and that it would also include giving respect to the students.
I haven't had the privilege of teaching a class yet but I've been a student in many. I have ADD, which had not been called that when I was in school, but my attention would wander when things weren't interesting. When they were interesting, information would often make me think of how it related to other things I had learned and I would miss parts of the instruction. I had some teachers who thought I was just not paying attention and disciplined me for my way of processing their instruction.
The teachers who exercised patience and drew me back to the lessons with questions were the most effective. They were paying attention to the individuals, or you might say giving them and I respect. At that age I did not understand the definition of respect but I became more inclined to pay attention to the teachers that treated me in this way.
We are starting with five schools of discipline beginning with Assertive Discipline which uses rewards and consequences and progresses through Beyond Discipline which admonishes any system that is “ultimately about getting students to comply,” and recommends instead that “We have to help them figure out--for themselves and with each other--how one ought to act.”
To me, discipline means whatever methods are used to gain the students’ attention and impart the lesson. That is a positive connotation. I could care less if the students respect me. I do care if they learn the material. Some children will be attentive naturally. Others will have problems and it is the instructor’s job to overcome these problems. This will require individual attention to the students. If a child needs individual attention to learn and the teacher gives it, is it any less of a reward than recognition or a gold star?
When my wife was in grade school she had a hard time reading and gaining comprehension. The nun surprisingly offered her the opportunity to walk back and forth as she read and for some reason this worked for her. She applied the same technique to a fidgeting student she had in a class she substituted and it worked for him to. Go figure. On the other hand she had another nun who kept slapping her left hand whenever she used it, and because of a bad experience at home she turned this teacher off.
I think we are all going to come across a myriad of problems we’ve not considered and I can’t imagine anyway of successfully dealing with them except to work with the individual students who need our help.
No worries Leslie. I assume you are in Ashlee's class. Thank you for your thoughts.
Everyone else should have figured out the blogging by now and should have accounts set up. I look for some comments from other students very soon. Thanks, Splichal
I agree that respect needs to be earned by the teacher. We need to remember that children are human beings with thoughts and emotions that need to be respected. So I guess I'm a little confused at what you are getting at by the dog training question. I've done dog obedience classes and a lot of dog training has to do with the dog knowing who the pack leader is and where the dog is in the pack. They learn this through rewards, such as treats or praise, and punishments, such as a "no" or a stiff yank on the collar. I guess in a simplistic way I can see the correlation between teacher/students and owner/dog. Dogs and students do better when the expectations are consistent and clear. My dog heals better for me then my 9 year old because she is not as consistent with her commands. I have seen classes that teachers are also inconsistent and the same thing happens. It just seems that we could get beyond just punishment and reward as a discipline method with students. Their brains are so much more complex than a dog's, but then that is probably were effective teaching comes in.
In training a dog, only the master rewards correct action with treats. This reinforces the correct action until a treat is no longer required. It also teaches the dog that it is important to pay attention to the master. The correlary to the classroom would be like in Assertive discipline where positive actions are rewarded and are in fact "training" the student to correct behavior.
I can see exactly where you were coming from Mr. Splichal when you said that training your dog is like earning respect from children. You have to start by rewarding them for the good thing that they do, but if they make a mistake then you need to let them know that it is not okay- in a nice way of course. Once the child and/or the dog know what is right and what is wrong then they will listen to you and follow your directions. You can't change your mind in the middle of the "training" process because you will just confuse them and show them that you don't know what you want and what you are talking about therefore you won't get the respect that you worked for.
In regards to the training of the dog. I agree with many of you that you earn the respect of the dog in a similar manner you earn respect from a student. But, I am interested in the question of how does the dog know WHO to listen to? My dog, and my child for that matter, listen to me not only because of the training and rewards I give them, but also because I am the individual that cares for them. In both situations, they develop trust because they know I will keep them in an environment that is safe and caring. Why does a dog come to me when I call him? Its very true, that training makes this happen, but even with the best training if a dog doesn't know you are safe and loving, they will resist. I feel this can be true with our students as well. If they feel safe and comfortable, they develop trust and respect.
I understand the parallels that you all have pointed out between dog training and classroom discipline, but I feel that dog training is still more dictatorial and deals with the understanding that the dog is submissive. I don’t see students as submitting to my demands. I think that is where earning the students respect comes in. When they respect the teacher and the teacher respects them then a team is formed and the real joy of learning can come through. April, my daughter and I watched the movie “Freedom Writers” last spring and I agree that movie illustrates this topic perfectly. I would recommend it to all of us. The gang violence is always a little shocking, but the message is so good and it was based on a true story. After talking about discipline and respect with my high school senior last night, I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on how they might change at different grade levels. She seemed to be saying that discipline doesn’t really work in high school. The students don’t care. Just wondering what other people thought?
I agree with the idea that to earn respect you have to give it. You also have to be consistent-that is one of the main factors with discipline. But the question that stood out in my mind was "Who does the student(dog) listen to?" It is just not the teacher, it is the Para that pulls that student for some extra help, it is the librarian that checks out a book to them, it is the lunch lady that serves them lunch....just not only the teacher. It is so important that the whole school is on the same page when it comes to discipline. Everyone has to use the same language, consequences, etc. The students sure know who they can roll over and who they cannot. They are crafty little devils!! :-)
WOW!!!!!!!!! I love reading this. This is exactly what a blog is for. Open discussion. I agree with Gran'ts analysis for sure. I also agree with what many of you said about the dog training. It is consistency and trust and firmness and honor and love and care and commitment and all of the things you mentioned. My dog listens to me over the kids because I am "the leader of the Pack." why is that? What did I do for my dog? Why does our dog listen to ME and not them? Well, that is what you all need to figure out. hahahaha Good work all.
I want to take a different approach for some of you. Think back to your best teachers in your live. The teacher who you learned the MOST from. Why did they rarely have discipline issues to deal with? Everyone does from time to time have discipline issues to deal with, but for the most part, the best teachers never have to worry about it. WHY? So tell me, think back to your best teachers. What did they do to never have to worry about discipline? Thanks, Splichal
My best teacher was my 6th grade teacher, Mr. T. If we broke the rules, we had to do push-ups....seriously. I did push-ups for like 15 minutes one day because I did not ask to get out of my seat...believe me that did not happen again. He was very strict, but he also showed how much he cared for you. I was home for a week with the chicken pox-he called me twice to make sure I was doing ok. That was the best teacher that I ever had. I learned so much in that class. If I teach 4th or 5th grade, there are some things that I would like to do with my class that I did when I was a 6th grader.
My favorite teacher was my high school math teacher. She was very strict and if you didn't do what she liked or showed you, you got lectured, but she knew what she was talking about and if you listened and asked questions then she would spend the extra time to explain the math. I respected her because she is effective teacher.
I had a couple of favorite teachers and what they both had in common was the ability to keep us engaged in learning the material. Because we were engaged in learning, we didn't have any discipline problems. We were listening to them and we were also sharing with each other.
I also had a history teacher that didn't have any discipline problems in his class - but it wasn't because he was engaging, he had a German Shepherd keep watch over us. Mr. A. was blind and had a seeing eye dog. That dog let him know the second someone was out of their seat.
My favorite teacher was in High school and when anyone walked into her class they knew what was expected from her and what she expected from them as students. She didn't take school lightly and while she liked to have fun she wanted students to take learning seriously. Respect was a big issue for her and the previous comments of earning respect is correct! A person cannot get respect without giving it as well! As far as the discipline in the classroom for this teacher; there were rarely incidents as suggested. I feel this is because of respect but I also feel that it helped that she made sure her rules and expectations were known so there were never any excuses of why something wasn't accomplished.
LOVE IT. Sweet story about the seeing eye dog. Stephanie. That is exactly what I am talking about. While we have to be careful using physical punishments such as pushups, the thing that set that teacher apart was that fact that he called when you were sick. Emily - EXPECTATIONS!!!!!!! One of the many facets that make excellent teachers EXCELLENT.
Good work all. Splichal
Now, some others in Ashlee's class: Lets hear what you have to say about Canter's Assertive Discipline. good or bad and why?
Wow I am so embarrased I couldn't figure this blogging thing out but I think I did so here goes. I feel that not all respect is just given, however sometimes it should be but you have to earn respect to receive respect. Thinking back to my favorite teacher it was my first grade teacher. She kept us so busy with hands on activities that their wasn't really any extra time to act out in her classroom. If we choose to act out she would send us outside for like 5 minutes while everyone played a fun game. After returning to the classroom the kids talked about how much fun they had so then the students who acted up wouldn't want to get in trouble again.
I like how Canters’ Assertive discipline recognizes that the students have rights and feelings and that understanding these feelings can aid in creating an effective learning environment. I personally use proximity of verbal recognition a lot when I sub. It amazing how a few compliments to students making the right choice, correct the students close by who are making some poor choices.
Cassie, don't feel bad I posted my ideas and I can't find them on this page. I like the descipline idea about having a student set out for a fun activities. Hoping not to many kids get in trouble or else you would have too many kids out in the hall. Where the kids unsupervised? and is that a concern?
I firmly believe in the golden rule treat others as you would like to be treated. I feel if you give respect then you will earn the respect and with that they will respect your rules and discipline. I had a teacher in high school that had never raised her voice or had to ask all she did was look at you disapprovingly and you would straighten up, no one wanted to disappoint her. My dad was the same way he never had to spank us or ground us all he had to say was I am very disappointed and that was all it took. I feel that this was the most effective way to earn and do both
I agree with Stephanie that the whole school as a whole has to be consistent with the same discipline. I was an at-risk para for second grade at a primary school that had adopted the Conscience discipline program. within this program it was stated that all faculty must give three positive choices for the student to change their behavior. If they did not choose one then they were to spend time in time out. Lets just say I did not approve of this method with some of the children not all children can be disciplined the same way.
I think that my best teachers were ones that didn't have to work at respect. My wife is an elementary school principal and therefore we talk about discipline a lot in my house! She has a simple rule that she shares with her kids and that is ... "I give you as much respect as you give me". This really sets the stage for the kids and allows them to make choices that affect their life every day. I think that this creates a mutual respect, therefore reducing discipline problems in the classroom. This can be done from an administrative level as she does as well as at the classroom level. I also worked with students in small groups at a middle school last year as a tutor and found that this held true for me as well. My students were the ones that the teachers really liked to have out of the room because of their behavior issues but I never had the problems that the teachers expressed. I was real with them and didn't treat them as if they were beneath me but that we could learn from each other. Students just need to know that life is not always a one way street. I am a firm believer that we can learn as much from our students as they can from us!
I really appreciate William's post. His wife has a great rule that can be applied in everyday life not just a classroom setting. The students he tutored are a perfect example of how if given respect the students will also give respect back. That is a situation you see too often because someone doesn't have the patience or know how to handle challenging students.
One of my favorite teachers would be a high school English teacher. She was very kind, trustworthy, and open teacher. She was well liked and respected. She respected every student and they respected her. The few occurrences where she had been disrespected, they knew how disappointed she was and it rarely happened twice. She always saw the good in people even when other teachers and the principal didn’t. We had a classmate get expelled from school but she always included him in extracurricular activities off school grounds. Whether he was guilty or not few of us would ever know because she never judged him and continued to respect him. She had a way of making sure you knew what was morally right and encouraging us to make our own decisions. I wish I knew what her secret was, but all I can guess was that she just treated us the way she wanted to be treated.
I think that it is also true that the better prepared you are for your lessons the less stress you will feel as a teacher. Then, you will be able to have the patience that is needed when discipline situations like the ones you all are describing happen. I'm sure all these teachers that have been used as examples were also very prepared for their classes. I love reading the stories. They help make me think about it from different angles.
Ellen, I completely agree with you about being prepared. When I did my formal observation for internship, my mentor teacher let me practice on two classes before I gave the "real" one. Each time, I learned something different. Like holding my hand up to get their attention, or using proximity to get a students attention. Subtle things, that really work. The best part about my internship last year was observing how the teacher changed her presentation according to the class. It was the same material for six classes, but the presentation was different based on the abilities or class dynamics.
Great comments everyone. I observed something very interesting this past weekend. I've seen it numerous time before but it fits so well with what you are blogging. I was home over the weekend to go hunting with my boys, my brother and his boys. My nephews are very very rowdy and disrespectful at times. The night they got to town they had been riding in the vehicle for about 3 hours so naturally they were burning off some pent up energy. Well, my brother had had enough of the rowdiness and threatened my nephews. Here is what he said and I want you to all comment on it. "Boys, if you don't behave I will put you back in the truck and we will drive back home right now!!!!"
So tell me..........why do the boys continue to misbehave??????
It's an idle threat and the boys know it! As a parent, we've all done it especially when we have had it. We don't think clearly. We need to be prepared to follow through with everything, as parents and teachers, then the boys would stop. I would have loved to have seen the boys if he really did it. It would make your future hunting trips peaceful.
Ah, that reminds me of the time I said I would pull the car over if my kids didn't stop fighting. They continued, and I pulled over! They were shocked that I pulled over off a busy highway. They stopped their fighting. ----Oh and I had plenty of other episodes where I did not back up what I said - and I regretted that decision. It's a learning curve. :)
A couple of things come to mind why the boys didn't behave after the threat. 1. because they know their Dad doesn't want to drive three hours back and miss a hunting trip that he apparently planned for and/or 2. that they weren't interested in hunting, they had other plans that they wanted to be home for so they were hoping he would make good on his threat.
I used to do things like this when I was little. You continue the behavior because naturally you want to see if your parent or guardian will really do what they say. You have to back your words not just think they will stop acting out. After all you have to give respect to get it in return. So when or if they stop the fighting they are showing respect for their elder. It is a simple test of ones ability to hold their cool and stay calm. I remember when my mom said I will pull this car over when we were on our way to town one day. Well naturally children usually have to learn the hard way because sometimes parents are all. talk and no bite. She did indeed pull the car over and we were still fighting so when she told us to stop we didn't so we got whacked with a hair brush. Nothing really serious but it did scare us enough to stop the fighting and to take her serious whenever she said to stop.
Children just like to test the parents limits, sometimes you know that they wont back up what they say because like yours said they were going hunting. Therefor the parent wanted to be there he didn't want to miss a great hunting trip like that. If it turns out that he did back himself and did drive the kids back in that 3 hour ride it would have been dead silent and the kids would start to feel bad that they made their parent miss out on something that he wanted to do with his boys. It is bonding to be with a parent on a trip such as that not a punishment.
They continue to misbehave because evidently they don't believe he will actually do it. It's so important that parents, and teachers too, follow through. We have to choose our words carefully before we go ahead and speak them, which can be challenging in situations that become tense or stressful. Whatever we say, we need to be able to follow through with it. If we don't do this, kids will not take us seriously; they will develop disrespect towards us. Children need to know that you mean what you say. You have to be able to follow through with said consequences or discipline.
The boys have been told that before and nothing happened obviously. Everyone has heard that or said it before and it’s pretty commonly a meaningless threat. Few parents actually do turn around and cancel their plans. If the situation was different, say at home, the parents (hopefully) would have followed through and the boys would know better. Kids also like to show off around their friends or cousins and show how far they can push the limits. They knew they were safe. I have a six year old (only child) and for the first 4 years it was easier to keep the peace and pretty much let her have her way. She dictated what and where we ate, what time she went to bed, and several other factors to where we just stayed at home so no one else say her tantrums. That was a horrible mistake and the older she got we realized we created a monster. We set rules and consequences and had long talks about the changes we were making and how it affected her. The last 2 years have been a long battle, but we are winning everyday! This past July she was throwing a fit over what we were having for lunch, it escalated to hitting and biting me. She had a T-ball swim party that evening and was told she was not going to participate. We took her to get her trophy and see all the fun she was missing out on because of her choices. She cried and begged but we followed through with the punishment. It was very difficult for me to do, but her behavior was close to perfect for several weeks following that. I have learned first hand, the longer kids go without reinforcing the rules, the longer and harder it is to get them to respect you. I believe this would be the same in a classroom. Whether it is inconsistency with the teacher, past teachers, or the student’s parents problems usually aren’t resolved immediately. Teachers and parents need to remember to have patience and it should get easier.
They did not see any chance of that punishment being followed through on. I believe you have to set parameters and the level of discipline that is appropriate and if disobeyed, it must be followed through with 100% of the time. If you make idle threats and only sometimes follow through, you send a message that you aren't serious. I believe kids will purposely push until they find out(sometimes the hard way)where the line in the sand has been drawn.
First time commenting here -- I am going back to the "dog" analogy. I have been a para in some classrooms where a student is disciplined not due to respect but by fear. Similiar to a dog that is beaten into submission. However, if cornered that very same dog could very well bite you. I believe that this also happens with students.
I often times tell students that they do not have to respect a teacher but they should be respectful. Such as speak when spoken to and respond when asked to do something.
I also tell my students with behavior issues, that they can think whatever they so choose and not one single person - peer, teacher or principal -- can do anything about it, BUT once it comes out of their mouth it becomes public property and that is why they should speak respectfully.
I know that I am not always good about following through on my threats to my kids either. Sometimes it is just to try and get them to stop...but they know that, and of course no action on my part does fire back on me. It is like the child that called wolf too many times, and no one could believe what he said anymore. It also allows the kids to try and bend that line even further, just to see what they can get away with.
The boys continued to misbehave because they have probably heard that a million times and nothing happened. I also threatened to pull over the car when my boys were little. I did it twice and one time it was in front of Grandma! They never questioned me again on whether or not I would do it. I also was grocery shopping one day and had to leave a whole cart of food because of a temper tantrum. But, my boys do know I mean business...now when they misbehave we fine them. They get allowance every week, if they don't do what they are supposed to do they get fined a dollar. (I have got a vacation fund going for myself and my husband.) It is hitting them where they live.....you have got to find their currency, so to speak, and be consistant.
Well I am very late to this party but I wanted to address one of the comments. Emily - EXPECTATIONS!!!!!!! One of the many facets that make excellent teachers EXCELLENT. I agree completely with this. My favorite teacher was my mom. I was homeschooled from first grade through my senior year. One thing that my mom always made very clear was her expectations for me. I have done the same thing with students I tutor and they seem to do very well with it. I also believe that the more you expect out of a child the more they will achieve.
The boys continued to misbehave because they knew that it was an empty threat. A ridiculous empty threat at that! Children have to have clear cut rules and consequences, because children will push their limits as far as possible.
Hello Everyone! I am also one of the latecomers to the blog. I tried to read through everyone's posts to get caught up. I believe that there is a correlation between respect and discipline especially in the classroom. I think it's mainly because when children respect the teacher, and when they are respected they behave much better and there are less opportunities for discipline to take place. I also think that correct timing and execution of discipline in the right circumstances will bring about respect and help for less problems in the future. I don't know as much about dogs as I do about children, but I see some good examples above about trust and consistency and respect correlating with behaviors in children and dogs. Mr. Splichal my answer to your LAST question is that your nephews do not believe their father. They know that he won't turn around. From past experience or threats they know that there is no way he would turn around and return from the trip because of their behavior. Now if someone else had told them that they didn't know they might have stopped because they were unsure of the consequences. That's why as a teacher it's important to show the students that you do follow through with what you say, so that they trust you and believe what you say but also so that they will listen and your class will be less disruptive and more organized.
You have to have discipline to have respect. If a teacher is consistent with her rules and disciple she will get respect from the students that follow these rules. She in return will get respect by being consistent. When I took my girls to their first day of school. I thought as I left that their teacher seemed to strict. Come on its the first day of school shouldn't it be fun? I thought. Then the I started reading our text book and realized she wasn't she had to be this way to show the kids from the beginning what she suspected from them. They have been in school and I can see that she runs a good classroom and they kids know what to expect and what is expect from them. So I believe it goes as the old saying goes: you have to show respect to get respect.
Cristy, No the children were supervised by an aide that would come around. However I do feel that this is a concern in a classroom now of having children set in the halls if they are misbehaving. In the school that I was employed for 7 years just had a recent budget cut and had to let all but a few aides go. This scenario of a discipline might not be a good one to use if their is no one to supervise.
I think your nephews continued to misbehave because they new their father would not turn the truck around and go home. This is something I think a lot of parents do. I catch myself doing this. I do believe if he would of told them something that he would of really stuck with and then stuck with it. The boys would of started to listen. A threat is only good if you follow through with it from a kid. They love to call your bluff.
I believe that the correlation between discipline and respect are that if you show respect to others you usually will get it back in return. With respect for themselves and others there usually comes self discipline. We can not demand respect we have to show it, when we demand it then we do not get it in return. Working with high school aged kids I have seen several different teaching methods from different teachers and something that I have found is that the older teachers that have been teaching for many years usually expect the kids to come in with self discipline and respect when in fact they may not truly know how to do that due to there home life!! I think that sometimes we need to take a step back and look from the outside in and realize that we are the examples for positive behavior which is respect and discipline.
The reason that they boys continued to misbehave is becasue they knew that they would not load up and go back home. We have all made open threats to children and they pick up on it!! I sometime dont think that we give our children enough credit for how smart they truly are, for example they knew that they would not have to go home there for their behavior stayed the same.
Sorry everyone, I am just figuring out blogging, but I have read through the other posts and have some answers to the previous questions. • The correlation between respect and discipline is that respect is earned not just given. The teacher has to respect their students in order for the teacher to earn their respect. • Most of the teachers I had did not have discipline problems because they were assertive and positive. We knew what was expected of us through the clear rules and consequences that were set. They also kept us engaged in learning and did not have idle time were misbehavior could occur. • Canters' Assertive Discipline has strengths and weaknesses. It is good because it structured, systematic, organized, and engaging. It is bad because it does not teach right and wrong, just to follow rules, and the students could break the rules as long as they didn’t get caught. I think that points of this discipline could be used along with other disciplines in order to be a more equal classroom with students who learn morals and responsibility. • As to your nephews, they obviously did not believe their dad. Follow through is important with children or they will run all over you. If you do not show that there are consequences for their actions then they will continue to do whatever they want.
I have 1 daughter and 3 sons. There have been many times when we have left a store abruptly due to their fighting with each other, being too rowdy, etc. When they were just toddlers, I would let them know that if they misbehaved, we would leave. Sometimes it inconvenienced me, and sometimes it shocked them -- but every time it was effective. Once in a Toys 'R Us, my youngest 2 sons had a complete melt down over the last purple light saber. I took the toy out of their hands, left my buggy, and we all marched out of the store and straight home for naps. You could've heard a pin drop in the car that day! I believe that consistency is key with discipline. Children will not respect you in the long run if you don't follow through.
I believe that the correlation between respect and discipline is that generally depending on the level of respect, there is going to be a direct correlation to discipline. Those students, children that respect their teacher, probably will follow rules better because of either the fear of consequences or because of respect for the teacher as well. Those that don't respect teachers or their parents, will try to push the envelope to see what they can get away with, and they may not care.
They kept misbehaving because their parents probably do not follow through with the consequence they "threatened" without consistency threats are just that. I was always told never to give empty threats or unrealistic ones. they knew that they would not go home.
while working as a Marriage and Family therapist, I dealt a lot with parenting issues. They all had common themes; empty threats, unattainable goals/rewards, and lack of consisitency or follow through. What I also noticed that the children were smart enough to manipulate the parent(s) to get what they want. So what I did was have the parents pick out the things that they wanted to implement for the children and the things that they found as being annoying and built of their lists and created a discipline problem. The catch was I told the kids that the parents would catch them in the act of being good and they had to identify what they were doing when they earned the positive praise. What I found was that it was difficult for parents to identify the positives because they were so focused on the negatives. In the end what I taught the parents was that they had to have realistic expectations of their children with attainable goals/rewards, and they had to follow through and show consistency so that the children understood that they were serious. Eventually what I came to see was some positive changes and children that were not confused about their expectations. It was also important for me to talk with the children and figure out what they thought was fair as far as expectations and consequences were so that they too had a voice in regards to their expectations/punishments.
Leslie, I agree with you! you have to be consistant with rules and when kids do something and threaten them with a punishment such as leaving the store and then dont if they act up they will continue to act up and fight because they know that you will just warn them... so consistency is very important
I agree with you Jenny and Leslie. It is very important to stay consistent, no matter what inconviences it may bring you. I know that it takes me a couple times after I balk to get the kids to understand that I mean business. If you stay consistent, kids are less confused of what is expected, and you would have less flare ups or them trying to push the limit on certain behaviors.
Well, I have no children and i have a little sister so, I am just gonna go off from what I see at the daycare I work at, where there are mostly boys. I think they don't listen because they want to see how far they can push you and at the daycare we give them options too, and if they dont pick up their toys they can stay inside for 10 minutes while everyone else goes outside, sometimes they dont think we will follow thru with it. I know the boys at the daycare push us providers to our limits and past them. I am sure that when I have children I will def. get to experience my own children not listening to me and misbehaving, until then I get to experience other peoples children.
April, I believe when you have children some of these issues may arise, but because you have experience at the daycare center and taking educational courses, you'll understand the steps needed to correct misbehavior or prevent it, and they might not be as difficult because of your experience. I wish I had this knowledge before starting a family, because the baby books just don't cut it.
The word that comes up most often is to be consistent and that really is the key to anything we do in life; dieting, exercising, discipline, learning. When we are consistent in what we expect of others and ourselves, things tend to run smoothly. I believe the hardest part is to not get discouraged when it doesn't work right away, we just need to have patience and consistency.
Christine~ I totally agree with you regarding the consistency! It's so important to be consistent with your expectations and develop a healthy and respectful relationship with your children, whether you're a parent or a teacher. Children need to develop respect for authority figures. When they get out into the work field, they will have a supervisor to report to; there are also religious authority figures. In regard to the Module 1 assignment, some of these discipline theorists are so contradictory. I know everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, but I don't understand how some of these discipline theories can be productive enough in the classroom. Maybe I've been a parent long enough and the classroom time I have experienced, leads me to quickly agree/disagree with these theories. Some of them seem way off to me. I also agree with your statement of not getting discouraged. I think it's so beneficial to have mentors, co-workers, instructors, and friends who can be strong supporters and provide encouragement for us. We need to encourage our students with their learning, but we, as teachers, need encouragement as well, especially from others who are going through similar situations.
As the others have said you can’t have one without the other. Respect and discipline go hand in hand. I feel that consistency also goes with the two. If you don’t have consistency you will lose the respect and if you lose the respect the discipline problems will come. Making sure what is expected up front is very important, if the students do not know what is expected they will not understand why they are being disciplined and will lose any respect they might have had. Some of the students that I have worked with that had behavior problems said what made a difference for them were that I would listen to them. They would still have the consequences’ and were not allowed to yell but I would empathize. When running a whole class room you don’t have the opportunity to always have that time. The teacher that I work with now I watch her and she will have me watch the class so she can talk to and listen to what has happened and this seems to help the students feel like they are being heard and it makes it a teachable moment to show them different ways they could have handled the situation. I also feel that the boys were not listening because it was an empty threat, plus the fact that they need a way to get all that energy out. When I travel with my kids when they were young we built in stops to play and burn up energy. This was a tremendous help
I also agree with you and many of our other classmates that respect and discipline go hand-in-hand. Without discipline, you cannot learn respect. Not only does discipline teach respect, it also helps develop self-control and empathy for others.
I also believe that in order to have respect for others, we need to have respect for ourselves; and to be capable of obeying and accepting discipline from others, we need to develop self-discipline.
I like what Becky just said. You need to give respect to get it in return. When you respect the opinions of others they will respect you. When you respect your students and use fair discipline to go along with their behavior they will have respect for you since they know that you are sticking with everything you say. If we don't respect ourselves how do we expect others to respect us. If you had out a punishment the student should accept it and learn from their mistake
I feel the correlation between respect and discipline just as others have stated, it takes discipline to gain respect. Students will not just respect a teacher going into their classroom. It’s after setting the pace and expectations of the classroom that children who follow those rules and expectations begin to show respect. Sometimes this takes longer for some children. As I was reading down I saw that Leslie stated that we would be surprised at the number of people that don’t know common courtesy, however this is something we can teach in a classroom but I feel depending on the grade of course children should already be working at this at home. This could be because I currently work at a pre-school and we have one year olds that say please, thank you, want to hold doors, etc and it they continue to grow more courtesy at our center by saying excuse me, asking to be excused, and asking if someone needs help. I know not all children are like this but that solo, I feel as a lot to do on how they have been brought up. I do feel that the children that are learning these things though do have a better sense of respect for their teachers and parents. Brittni I also agree with what you said. I’ve been taught my whole life that if you want to be respected you must respect your peers and elders. I think this is something very important that should be remembered daily when making choices and how the outcome will effect us.
I agree with in order to get respect you have to give respect. The class should come up with respectful behavior and disrespectful behavior first thing. There should be clear consequences decided from the beginning if someone breaks rules. For example...after several verbal reminders we use think time. Children have to sit away from their group and think about the choices they are making. We then talk to them about the behavior we want at the activity we were involved in and they go back to their group. I believe children respond better to positive discipline. Instead of pointing out negatives in the classroom you should always point out the positives. For example..."Heather is being a good role model by sitting criss cross and raising her hand instead of shouting out." The children will then look to Heather and realize this is respectful behavior and want to show the teacher they can do this too. If a student continues to shout out or other behavior not wanted I would repeat the direction again. " I called on (so and so) because they raised their hand" or "That was a good idea you had but I can't call on you until you raise your hand" If it continued they would use think time and I would talk to them one on one after a few minutes. Positive classroom management is the key to getting your students to respect you and the other students in your classroom. Children do not always know what respect is until you model and teach them how to be respectful.
I agree with Christine in that you need to be patient, but more importantly, consistent in your actions concerning discipline. Students will recognize when you are steady and consistent in your decisions and most likely won't push once they know the limits and that you won't waver in your discipline.
Hello Everythone. You should be familiar with the course in BB now. I hope all of you are in the process of studying the discipline theorists. This is the major component of Module 1. Please post any questions or concerns that you have in blogger so that we can all benefit. Thanks, Splichal
ReplyDeleteHello everyone. Tell me, what is the correlation between Respect and Discipline?
ReplyDeleteThe relationship between respect and discipline is that it takes discipline to respect. For example if a teacher sets out rules for the classroom the students who obey those rules or disciplined they are showing respect towards their teacher and also fellow classmates.
ReplyDeleteSo do you Demand Respect? Does the teacher have to require it? Someone other than April should respond.
ReplyDeleteWe cannot demand our students to respect us. That is one sure way of not having them respect us. Respect is earned, and it's earned both ways. This is where we set up our classroom rules and involve the students in the process of establishing rules for the class. For the students to respect us, we need to be fair in our discipline, we need to treat them as individuals and listen to them. Give the students the opportunity to share their life with us.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteCorrelation implies that there are independent and dependent variables. In this case it is presumed that the independent is discipline and the dependent is respect. This is not the same as cause an effect, but rather that the independent can explain a certain percentage of the dependent.
ReplyDeleteIf one looks at the etymology of the words; discipline comes from the Latin Disciple, which meant student, follower or pupil, and discipline was the instruction of the disciple, respect also comes from the Latin and means to look back at one. So, originally discipline was the instruction of the student and respect was the student looking back at or giving his attention to the instructor.
Because all children do not necessarily want to be educated, mandatory education created an environment where respect was not given by all students and effectual instruction evolved to include the concept of correction or chastisement.
Today however there are progressive philosophies that embrace the notion that mutual respect can bring about effectual instruction through cooperation with the students, without the need for a punitive or consequential structure.
I agree with Christine D. I had bought this movie Freedom Writers and have watched it a couple times and one scene about respect stood out to me. The students were saying, "just because you are a teacher, you think you can just get respect, how do we know we can trust you". Just because we are adults and teachers we shouldn't just demand it is a two-way street. To get respect, you give it.
ReplyDeleteChristine, that was exactly what I was looking for. Respect is EARNED, not Demanded. Good thoughts. We have to earn the respect of our students and they have to earn our respect. It is a two-way street. Thanks for joining us from Ashlee's class. Welcome.
ReplyDeleteGrant, we aren't talking old school philosophy or historical meanings of the words here. I am saying this, if a student disrespects a teacher in the classroom by breaking rules or not following instructions, this typically revolves around the respect the student has for the teacher. With a foundation of respect which is mutually earned, discipline becomes a non-issue.
ReplyDeleteSomeone in the class please give another example. Are we on the right track here or am I way off base. Think about how you train a hunting dog for instance - - how do you do it? How does the dog begin to obey commands? How does the dog know WHO to listen to? Splichal
ReplyDeleteThe saying is that respect is earned. Discipline is given. One is positive, while the other is negative. Discipline can earn respect, but can also be disrespectful. It is all in the application in which they are applied. Consistency is key and expectations of both the teacher and the student are set upfront and made known to both parties.
ReplyDeleteHey Ashleigh. Thanks for joining us from Ashlee's class. You made a very good point. "making it known to all." If students don't know what to expect, then they will be lost in all aspects, not just discipline.
ReplyDeleteAshleigh does make a great point,that everyone needs to know "upfront" what the expectations are in your classroom and the school. Although it may be common sense/courtesy not to cut in line, students still need to be taught not to do this. They should know the why they shouldn't, not just the "don't do it." Then they should know what to expect if they do cut in line and to follow through with your discipline. In a class I observed last semester that the teacher was not consistent with her discipline. Some students were able to "get away" with things that others were not. It's difficult to respect your teacher when they are not treating everyone fairly.
ReplyDeleteI agree with both Ashleigh and Christine. I do think we would all be surprised at the number of people (not just children) that do not know common courtesy. We cannot expect children to adhere to discipline if it is not consistent. Teachers must be so careful to not "play favorites" in regards to classroom discipline. Raising 4 children of my own, its fair to say they are very quick to pick up on an unfair balance. And when that occurs, their respect for the authority figure goes out the window.
ReplyDeleteSorry, this is Leslie Strahan. Still learning about this whole blog thing!
ReplyDeleteO.K. Dr. Splichal. I didn't mean to be hyperbolic but I didn't know the definitions at use. I thought it was instructive to know that "discipline" did not originally include the concept of consequences, and that it now seems to include those methods needed to obtain attention or respect from the students. Punishment or consequences would seem to me to be only a part of discipline and that it would also include giving respect to the students.
ReplyDeleteI haven't had the privilege of teaching a class yet but I've been a student in many. I have ADD, which had not been called that when I was in school, but my attention would wander when things weren't interesting. When they were interesting, information would often make me think of how it related to other things I had learned and I would miss parts of the instruction. I had some teachers who thought I was just not paying attention and disciplined me for my way of processing their instruction.
The teachers who exercised patience and drew me back to the lessons with questions were the most effective. They were paying attention to the individuals, or you might say giving them and I respect. At that age I did not understand the definition of respect but I became more inclined to pay attention to the teachers that treated me in this way.
We are starting with five schools of discipline beginning with Assertive Discipline which uses rewards and consequences and progresses through Beyond Discipline which admonishes any system that is “ultimately about getting students to comply,” and recommends instead that “We have to help them figure out--for themselves and with each other--how one ought to act.”
ReplyDeleteTo me, discipline means whatever methods are used to gain the students’ attention and impart the lesson. That is a positive connotation. I could care less if the students respect me. I do care if they learn the material. Some children will be attentive naturally. Others will have problems and it is the instructor’s job to overcome these problems. This will require individual attention to the students. If a child needs individual attention to learn and the teacher gives it, is it any less of a reward than recognition or a gold star?
When my wife was in grade school she had a hard time reading and gaining comprehension. The nun surprisingly offered her the opportunity to walk back and forth as she read and for some reason this worked for her. She applied the same technique to a fidgeting student she had in a class she substituted and it worked for him to. Go figure. On the other hand she had another nun who kept slapping her left hand whenever she used it, and because of a bad experience at home she turned this teacher off.
I think we are all going to come across a myriad of problems we’ve not considered and I can’t imagine anyway of successfully dealing with them except to work with the individual students who need our help.
No worries Leslie. I assume you are in Ashlee's class. Thank you for your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteEveryone else should have figured out the blogging by now and should have accounts set up. I look for some comments from other students very soon.
Thanks, Splichal
I agree that respect needs to be earned by the teacher. We need to remember that children are human beings with thoughts and emotions that need to be respected. So I guess I'm a little confused at what you are getting at by the dog training question. I've done dog obedience classes and a lot of dog training has to do with the dog knowing who the pack leader is and where the dog is in the pack. They learn this through rewards, such as treats or praise, and punishments, such as a "no" or a stiff yank on the collar. I guess in a simplistic way I can see the correlation between teacher/students and owner/dog. Dogs and students do better when the expectations are consistent and clear. My dog heals better for me then my 9 year old because she is not as consistent with her commands. I have seen classes that teachers are also inconsistent and the same thing happens. It just seems that we could get beyond just punishment and reward as a discipline method with students. Their brains are so much more complex than a dog's, but then that is probably were effective teaching comes in.
ReplyDeleteIn training a dog, only the master rewards correct action with treats. This reinforces the correct action until a treat is no longer required. It also teaches the dog that it is important to pay attention to the master. The correlary to the classroom would be like in Assertive discipline where positive actions are rewarded and are in fact "training" the student to correct behavior.
ReplyDeleteI can see exactly where you were coming from Mr. Splichal when you said that training your dog is like earning respect from children. You have to start by rewarding them for the good thing that they do, but if they make a mistake then you need to let them know that it is not okay- in a nice way of course. Once the child and/or the dog know what is right and what is wrong then they will listen to you and follow your directions. You can't change your mind in the middle of the "training" process because you will just confuse them and show them that you don't know what you want and what you are talking about therefore you won't get the respect that you worked for.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the training of the dog. I agree with many of you that you earn the respect of the dog in a similar manner you earn respect from a student. But, I am interested in the question of how does the dog know WHO to listen to? My dog, and my child for that matter, listen to me not only because of the training and rewards I give them, but also because I am the individual that cares for them. In both situations, they develop trust because they know I will keep them in an environment that is safe and caring. Why does a dog come to me when I call him? Its very true, that training makes this happen, but even with the best training if a dog doesn't know you are safe and loving, they will resist. I feel this can be true with our students as well. If they feel safe and comfortable, they develop trust and respect.
ReplyDeleteI understand the parallels that you all have pointed out between dog training and classroom discipline, but I feel that dog training is still more dictatorial and deals with the understanding that the dog is submissive. I don’t see students as submitting to my demands. I think that is where earning the students respect comes in. When they respect the teacher and the teacher respects them then a team is formed and the real joy of learning can come through. April, my daughter and I watched the movie “Freedom Writers” last spring and I agree that movie illustrates this topic perfectly. I would recommend it to all of us. The gang violence is always a little shocking, but the message is so good and it was based on a true story. After talking about discipline and respect with my high school senior last night, I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on how they might change at different grade levels. She seemed to be saying that discipline doesn’t really work in high school. The students don’t care. Just wondering what other people thought?
ReplyDeleteI agree with the idea that to earn respect you have to give it. You also have to be consistent-that is one of the main factors with discipline. But the question that stood out in my mind was "Who does the student(dog) listen to?" It is just not the teacher, it is the Para that pulls that student for some extra help, it is the librarian that checks out a book to them, it is the lunch lady that serves them lunch....just not only the teacher. It is so important that the whole school is on the same page when it comes to discipline. Everyone has to use the same language, consequences, etc. The students sure know who they can roll over and who they cannot. They are crafty little devils!! :-)
ReplyDeleteWOW!!!!!!!!! I love reading this. This is exactly what a blog is for. Open discussion. I agree with Gran'ts analysis for sure. I also agree with what many of you said about the dog training. It is consistency and trust and firmness and honor and love and care and commitment and all of the things you mentioned. My dog listens to me over the kids because I am "the leader of the Pack." why is that? What did I do for my dog? Why does our dog listen to ME and not them? Well, that is what you all need to figure out. hahahaha Good work all.
ReplyDeleteI want to take a different approach for some of you. Think back to your best teachers in your live. The teacher who you learned the MOST from. Why did they rarely have discipline issues to deal with? Everyone does from time to time have discipline issues to deal with, but for the most part, the best teachers never have to worry about it. WHY? So tell me, think back to your best teachers. What did they do to never have to worry about discipline? Thanks, Splichal
ReplyDeleteMy best teacher was my 6th grade teacher, Mr. T. If we broke the rules, we had to do push-ups....seriously. I did push-ups for like 15 minutes one day because I did not ask to get out of my seat...believe me that did not happen again. He was very strict, but he also showed how much he cared for you. I was home for a week with the chicken pox-he called me twice to make sure I was doing ok. That was the best teacher that I ever had. I learned so much in that class. If I teach 4th or 5th grade, there are some things that I would like to do with my class that I did when I was a 6th grader.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite teacher was my high school math teacher. She was very strict and if you didn't do what she liked or showed you, you got lectured, but she knew what she was talking about and if you listened and asked questions then she would spend the extra time to explain the math. I respected her because she is effective teacher.
ReplyDeleteI had a couple of favorite teachers and what they both had in common was the ability to keep us engaged in learning the material. Because we were engaged in learning, we didn't have any discipline problems. We were listening to them and we were also sharing with each other.
ReplyDeleteI also had a history teacher that didn't have any discipline problems in his class - but it wasn't because he was engaging, he had a German Shepherd keep watch over us. Mr. A. was blind and had a seeing eye dog. That dog let him know the second someone was out of their seat.
My favorite teacher was in High school and when anyone walked into her class they knew what was expected from her and what she expected from them as students. She didn't take school lightly and while she liked to have fun she wanted students to take learning seriously. Respect was a big issue for her and the previous comments of earning respect is correct! A person cannot get respect without giving it as well!
ReplyDeleteAs far as the discipline in the classroom for this teacher; there were rarely incidents as suggested. I feel this is because of respect but I also feel that it helped that she made sure her rules and expectations were known so there were never any excuses of why something wasn't accomplished.
LOVE IT. Sweet story about the seeing eye dog.
ReplyDeleteStephanie. That is exactly what I am talking about. While we have to be careful using physical punishments such as pushups, the thing that set that teacher apart was that fact that he called when you were sick.
Emily - EXPECTATIONS!!!!!!! One of the many facets that make excellent teachers EXCELLENT.
Good work all. Splichal
Now, some others in Ashlee's class: Lets hear what you have to say about Canter's Assertive Discipline. good or bad and why?
Wow I am so embarrased I couldn't figure this blogging thing out but I think I did so here goes. I feel that not all respect is just given, however sometimes it should be but you have to earn respect to receive respect.
ReplyDeleteThinking back to my favorite teacher it was my first grade teacher. She kept us so busy with hands on activities that their wasn't really any extra time to act out in her classroom. If we choose to act out she would send us outside for like 5 minutes while everyone played a fun game. After returning to the classroom the kids talked about how much fun they had so then the students who acted up wouldn't want to get in trouble again.
I like how Canters’ Assertive discipline recognizes that the students have rights and feelings and that understanding these feelings can aid in creating an effective learning environment. I personally use proximity of verbal recognition a lot when I sub. It amazing how a few compliments to students making the right choice, correct the students close by who are making some poor choices.
ReplyDeleteCassie, don't feel bad I posted my ideas and I can't find them on this page. I like the descipline idea about having a student set out for a fun activities. Hoping not to many kids get in trouble or else you would have too many kids out in the hall. Where the kids unsupervised? and is that a concern?
ReplyDeleteI loved reading this!
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for trying to get my students fired up, Kevin! I think most of them are still trying to figure it out! =)
Good job, guys! Ashlee Lingle
I firmly believe in the golden rule treat others as you would like to be treated. I feel if you give respect then you will earn the respect and with that they will respect your rules and discipline. I had a teacher in high school that had never raised her voice or had to ask all she did was look at you disapprovingly and you would straighten up, no one wanted to disappoint her. My dad was the same way he never had to spank us or ground us all he had to say was I am very disappointed and that was all it took. I feel that this was the most effective way to earn and do both
ReplyDeleteI agree with Stephanie that the whole school as a whole has to be consistent with the same discipline. I was an at-risk para for second grade at a primary school that had adopted the Conscience discipline program. within this program it was stated that all faculty must give three positive choices for the student to change their behavior. If they did not choose one then they were to spend time in time out. Lets just say I did not approve of this method with some of the children not all children can be disciplined the same way.
ReplyDeleteI think that my best teachers were ones that didn't have to work at respect. My wife is an elementary school principal and therefore we talk about discipline a lot in my house! She has a simple rule that she shares with her kids and that is ... "I give you as much respect as you give me". This really sets the stage for the kids and allows them to make choices that affect their life every day. I think that this creates a mutual respect, therefore reducing discipline problems in the classroom. This can be done from an administrative level as she does as well as at the classroom level. I also worked with students in small groups at a middle school last year as a tutor and found that this held true for me as well. My students were the ones that the teachers really liked to have out of the room because of their behavior issues but I never had the problems that the teachers expressed. I was real with them and didn't treat them as if they were beneath me but that we could learn from each other. Students just need to know that life is not always a one way street. I am a firm believer that we can learn as much from our students as they can from us!
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate William's post. His wife has a great rule that can be applied in everyday life not just a classroom setting. The students he tutored are a perfect example of how if given respect the students will also give respect back. That is a situation you see too often because someone doesn't have the patience or know how to handle challenging students.
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite teachers would be a high school English teacher. She was very kind, trustworthy, and open teacher. She was well liked and respected. She respected every student and they respected her. The few occurrences where she had been disrespected, they knew how disappointed she was and it rarely happened twice. She always saw the good in people even when other teachers and the principal didn’t. We had a classmate get expelled from school but she always included him in extracurricular activities off school grounds. Whether he was guilty or not few of us would ever know because she never judged him and continued to respect him. She had a way of making sure you knew what was morally right and encouraging us to make our own decisions. I wish I knew what her secret was, but all I can guess was that she just treated us the way she wanted to be treated.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is also true that the better prepared you are for your lessons the less stress you will feel as a teacher. Then, you will be able to have the patience that is needed when discipline situations like the ones you all are describing happen. I'm sure all these teachers that have been used as examples were also very prepared for their classes. I love reading the stories. They help make me think about it from different angles.
ReplyDeleteEllen, I completely agree with you about being prepared. When I did my formal observation for internship, my mentor teacher let me practice on two classes before I gave the "real" one. Each time, I learned something different. Like holding my hand up to get their attention, or using proximity to get a students attention. Subtle things, that really work. The best part about my internship last year was observing how the teacher changed her presentation according to the class. It was the same material for six classes, but the presentation was different based on the abilities or class dynamics.
ReplyDeleteGreat comments everyone. I observed something very interesting this past weekend. I've seen it numerous time before but it fits so well with what you are blogging. I was home over the weekend to go hunting with my boys, my brother and his boys.
ReplyDeleteMy nephews are very very rowdy and disrespectful at times. The night they got to town they had been riding in the vehicle for about 3 hours so naturally they were burning off some pent up energy. Well, my brother had had enough of the rowdiness and threatened my nephews. Here is what he said and I want you to all comment on it. "Boys, if you don't behave I will put you back in the truck and we will drive back home right now!!!!"
So tell me..........why do the boys continue to misbehave??????
Thanks, Splichal
It's an idle threat and the boys know it! As a parent, we've all done it especially when we have had it. We don't think clearly. We need to be prepared to follow through with everything, as parents and teachers, then the boys would stop. I would have loved to have seen the boys if he really did it. It would make your future hunting trips peaceful.
ReplyDeleteAh, that reminds me of the time I said I would pull the car over if my kids didn't stop fighting. They continued, and I pulled over! They were shocked that I pulled over off a busy highway. They stopped their fighting. ----Oh and I had plenty of other episodes where I did not back up what I said - and I regretted that decision. It's a learning curve. :)
ReplyDeleteA couple of things come to mind why the boys didn't behave after the threat. 1. because they know their Dad doesn't want to drive three hours back and miss a hunting trip that he apparently planned for and/or 2. that they weren't interested in hunting, they had other plans that they wanted to be home for so they were hoping he would make good on his threat.
I used to do things like this when I was little. You continue the behavior because naturally you want to see if your parent or guardian will really do what they say. You have to back your words not just think they will stop acting out. After all you have to give respect to get it in return. So when or if they stop the fighting they are showing respect for their elder. It is a simple test of ones ability to hold their cool and stay calm. I remember when my mom said I will pull this car over when we were on our way to town one day. Well naturally children usually have to learn the hard way because sometimes parents are all.
ReplyDeletetalk and no bite. She did indeed pull the car over and we were still fighting so when she told us to stop we didn't so we got whacked with a hair brush. Nothing really serious but it did scare us enough to stop the fighting and to take her serious whenever she said to stop.
Children just like to test the parents limits, sometimes you know that they wont back up what they say because like yours said they were going hunting. Therefor the parent wanted to be there he didn't want to miss a great hunting trip like that. If it turns out that he did back himself and did drive the kids back in that 3 hour ride it would have been dead silent and the kids would start to feel bad that they made their parent miss out on something that he wanted to do with his boys. It is bonding to be with a parent on a trip such as that not a punishment.
They continue to misbehave because evidently they don't believe he will actually do it. It's so important that parents, and teachers too, follow through. We have to choose our words carefully before we go ahead and speak them, which can be challenging in situations that become tense or stressful. Whatever we say, we need to be able to follow through with it. If we don't do this, kids will not take us seriously; they will develop disrespect towards us. Children need to know that you mean what you say. You have to be able to follow through with said consequences or discipline.
ReplyDeleteThe boys have been told that before and nothing happened obviously. Everyone has heard that or said it before and it’s pretty commonly a meaningless threat. Few parents actually do turn around and cancel their plans. If the situation was different, say at home, the parents (hopefully) would have followed through and the boys would know better. Kids also like to show off around their friends or cousins and show how far they can push the limits. They knew they were safe. I have a six year old (only child) and for the first 4 years it was easier to keep the peace and pretty much let her have her way. She dictated what and where we ate, what time she went to bed, and several other factors to where we just stayed at home so no one else say her tantrums. That was a horrible mistake and the older she got we realized we created a monster. We set rules and consequences and had long talks about the changes we were making and how it affected her. The last 2 years have been a long battle, but we are winning everyday! This past July she was throwing a fit over what we were having for lunch, it escalated to hitting and biting me. She had a T-ball swim party that evening and was told she was not going to participate. We took her to get her trophy and see all the fun she was missing out on because of her choices. She cried and begged but we followed through with the punishment. It was very difficult for me to do, but her behavior was close to perfect for several weeks following that. I have learned first hand, the longer kids go without reinforcing the rules, the longer and harder it is to get them to respect you. I believe this would be the same in a classroom. Whether it is inconsistency with the teacher, past teachers, or the student’s parents problems usually aren’t resolved immediately. Teachers and parents need to remember to have patience and it should get easier.
ReplyDeleteThey did not see any chance of that punishment being followed through on. I believe you have to set parameters and the level of discipline that is appropriate and if disobeyed, it must be followed through with 100% of the time. If you make idle threats and only sometimes follow through, you send a message that you aren't serious. I believe kids will purposely push until they find out(sometimes the hard way)where the line in the sand has been drawn.
ReplyDeleteFirst time commenting here -- I am going back to the "dog" analogy. I have been a para in some classrooms where a student is disciplined not due to respect but by fear. Similiar to a dog that is beaten into submission. However, if cornered that very same dog could very well bite you. I believe that this also happens with students.
ReplyDeleteI often times tell students that they do not have to respect a teacher but they should be respectful. Such as speak when spoken to and respond when asked to do something.
I also tell my students with behavior issues, that they can think whatever they so choose and not one single person - peer, teacher or principal -- can do anything about it, BUT once it comes out of their mouth it becomes public property and that is why they should speak respectfully.
I know that I am not always good about following through on my threats to my kids either. Sometimes it is just to try and get them to stop...but they know that, and of course no action on my part does fire back on me. It is like the child that called wolf too many times, and no one could believe what he said anymore. It also allows the kids to try and bend that line even further, just to see what they can get away with.
ReplyDeleteThe boys continued to misbehave because they have probably heard that a million times and nothing happened.
ReplyDeleteI also threatened to pull over the car when my boys were little. I did it twice and one time it was in front of Grandma! They never questioned me again on whether or not I would do it. I also was grocery shopping one day and had to leave a whole cart of food because of a temper tantrum. But, my boys do know I mean business...now when they misbehave we fine them. They get allowance every week, if they don't do what they are supposed to do they get fined a dollar. (I have got a vacation fund going for myself and my husband.) It is hitting them where they live.....you have got to find their currency, so to speak, and be consistant.
Well I am very late to this party but I wanted to address one of the comments. Emily - EXPECTATIONS!!!!!!! One of the many facets that make excellent teachers EXCELLENT.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely with this.
My favorite teacher was my mom. I was homeschooled from first grade through my senior year. One thing that my mom always made very clear was her expectations for me. I have done the same thing with students I tutor and they seem to do very well with it. I also believe that the more you expect out of a child the more they will achieve.
The boys continued to misbehave because they knew that it was an empty threat. A ridiculous empty threat at that! Children have to have clear cut rules and consequences, because children will push their limits as far as possible.
ReplyDeleteHello Everyone! I am also one of the latecomers to the blog. I tried to read through everyone's posts to get caught up. I believe that there is a correlation between respect and discipline especially in the classroom. I think it's mainly because when children respect the teacher, and when they are respected they behave much better and there are less opportunities for discipline to take place. I also think that correct timing and execution of discipline in the right circumstances will bring about respect and help for less problems in the future.
ReplyDeleteI don't know as much about dogs as I do about children, but I see some good examples above about trust and consistency and respect correlating with behaviors in children and dogs.
Mr. Splichal my answer to your LAST question is that your nephews do not believe their father. They know that he won't turn around. From past experience or threats they know that there is no way he would turn around and return from the trip because of their behavior. Now if someone else had told them that they didn't know they might have stopped because they were unsure of the consequences. That's why as a teacher it's important to show the students that you do follow through with what you say, so that they trust you and believe what you say but also so that they will listen and your class will be less disruptive and more organized.
You have to have discipline to have respect. If a teacher is consistent with her rules and disciple she will get respect from the students that follow these rules. She in return will get respect by being consistent. When I took my girls to their first day of school. I thought as I left that their teacher seemed to strict. Come on its the first day of school shouldn't it be fun? I thought. Then the I started reading our text book and realized she wasn't she had to be this way to show the kids from the beginning what she suspected from them. They have been in school and I can see that she runs a good classroom and they kids know what to expect and what is expect from them. So I believe it goes as the old saying goes: you have to show respect to get respect.
ReplyDeleteCristy,
ReplyDeleteNo the children were supervised by an aide that would come around. However I do feel that this is a concern in a classroom now of having children set in the halls if they are misbehaving. In the school that I was employed for 7 years just had a recent budget cut and had to let all but a few aides go. This scenario of a discipline might not be a good one to use if their is no one to supervise.
I think your nephews continued to misbehave because they new their father would not turn the truck around and go home. This is something I think a lot of parents do. I catch myself doing this. I do believe if he would of told them something that he would of really stuck with and then stuck with it. The boys would of started to listen. A threat is only good if you follow through with it from a kid. They love to call your bluff.
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ReplyDeleteI believe that the correlation between discipline and respect are that if you show respect to others you usually will get it back in return. With respect for themselves and others there usually comes self discipline. We can not demand respect we have to show it, when we demand it then we do not get it in return. Working with high school aged kids I have seen several different teaching methods from different teachers and something that I have found is that the older teachers that have been teaching for many years usually expect the kids to come in with self discipline and respect when in fact they may not truly know how to do that due to there home life!! I think that sometimes we need to take a step back and look from the outside in and realize that we are the examples for positive behavior which is respect and discipline.
ReplyDeleteThe reason that they boys continued to misbehave is becasue they knew that they would not load up and go back home. We have all made open threats to children and they pick up on it!! I sometime dont think that we give our children enough credit for how smart they truly are, for example they knew that they would not have to go home there for their behavior stayed the same.
ReplyDeleteSorry everyone, I am just figuring out blogging, but I have read through the other posts and have some answers to the previous questions.
ReplyDelete• The correlation between respect and discipline is that respect is earned not just given. The teacher has to respect their students in order for the teacher to earn their respect.
• Most of the teachers I had did not have discipline problems because they were assertive and positive. We knew what was expected of us through the clear rules and consequences that were set. They also kept us engaged in learning and did not have idle time were misbehavior could occur.
• Canters' Assertive Discipline has strengths and weaknesses. It is good because it structured, systematic, organized, and engaging. It is bad because it does not teach right and wrong, just to follow rules, and the students could break the rules as long as they didn’t get caught. I think that points of this discipline could be used along with other disciplines in order to be a more equal classroom with students who learn morals and responsibility.
• As to your nephews, they obviously did not believe their dad. Follow through is important with children or they will run all over you. If you do not show that there are consequences for their actions then they will continue to do whatever they want.
I have 1 daughter and 3 sons. There have been many times when we have left a store abruptly due to their fighting with each other, being too rowdy, etc. When they were just toddlers, I would let them know that if they misbehaved, we would leave. Sometimes it inconvenienced me, and sometimes it shocked them -- but every time it was effective. Once in a Toys 'R Us, my youngest 2 sons had a complete melt down over the last purple light saber. I took the toy out of their hands, left my buggy, and we all marched out of the store and straight home for naps. You could've heard a pin drop in the car that day! I believe that consistency is key with discipline. Children will not respect you in the long run if you don't follow through.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the correlation between respect and discipline is that generally depending on the level of respect, there is going to be a direct correlation to discipline. Those students, children that respect their teacher, probably will follow rules better because of either the fear of consequences or because of respect for the teacher as well. Those that don't respect teachers or their parents, will try to push the envelope to see what they can get away with, and they may not care.
ReplyDeleteThey kept misbehaving because their parents probably do not follow through with the consequence they "threatened" without consistency threats are just that. I was always told never to give empty threats or unrealistic ones. they knew that they would not go home.
ReplyDeletewhile working as a Marriage and Family therapist, I dealt a lot with parenting issues. They all had common themes; empty threats, unattainable goals/rewards, and lack of consisitency or follow through. What I also noticed that the children were smart enough to manipulate the parent(s) to get what they want. So what I did was have the parents pick out the things that they wanted to implement for the children and the things that they found as being annoying and built of their lists and created a discipline problem. The catch was I told the kids that the parents would catch them in the act of being good and they had to identify what they were doing when they earned the positive praise. What I found was that it was difficult for parents to identify the positives because they were so focused on the negatives. In the end what I taught the parents was that they had to have realistic expectations of their children with attainable goals/rewards, and they had to follow through and show consistency so that the children understood that they were serious. Eventually what I came to see was some positive changes and children that were not confused about their expectations. It was also important for me to talk with the children and figure out what they thought was fair as far as expectations and consequences were so that they too had a voice in regards to their expectations/punishments.
ReplyDeleteLeslie, I agree with you! you have to be consistant with rules and when kids do something and threaten them with a punishment such as leaving the store and then dont if they act up they will continue to act up and fight because they know that you will just warn them... so consistency is very important
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Jenny and Leslie. It is very important to stay consistent, no matter what inconviences it may bring you. I know that it takes me a couple times after I balk to get the kids to understand that I mean business. If you stay consistent, kids are less confused of what is expected, and you would have less flare ups or them trying to push the limit on certain behaviors.
ReplyDeleteWell, I have no children and i have a little sister so, I am just gonna go off from what I see at the daycare I work at, where there are mostly boys. I think they don't listen because they want to see how far they can push you and at the daycare we give them options too, and if they dont pick up their toys they can stay inside for 10 minutes while everyone else goes outside, sometimes they dont think we will follow thru with it. I know the boys at the daycare push us providers to our limits and past them.
ReplyDeleteI am sure that when I have children I will def. get to experience my own children not listening to me and misbehaving, until then I get to experience other peoples children.
April, I believe when you have children some of these issues may arise, but because you have experience at the daycare center and taking educational courses, you'll understand the steps needed to correct misbehavior or prevent it, and they might not be as difficult because of your experience. I wish I had this knowledge before starting a family, because the baby books just don't cut it.
ReplyDeleteThe word that comes up most often is to be consistent and that really is the key to anything we do in life; dieting, exercising, discipline, learning. When we are consistent in what we expect of others and ourselves, things tend to run smoothly. I believe the hardest part is to not get discouraged when it doesn't work right away, we just need to have patience and consistency.
Christine~
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you regarding the consistency! It's so important to be consistent with your expectations and develop a healthy and respectful relationship with your children, whether you're a parent or a teacher. Children need to develop respect for authority figures. When they get out into the work field, they will have a supervisor to report to; there are also religious authority figures. In regard to the Module 1 assignment, some of these discipline theorists are so contradictory. I know everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, but I don't understand how some of these discipline theories can be productive enough in the classroom. Maybe I've been a parent long enough and the classroom time I have experienced, leads me to quickly agree/disagree with these theories. Some of them seem way off to me. I also agree with your statement of not getting discouraged. I think it's so beneficial to have mentors, co-workers, instructors, and friends who can be strong supporters and provide encouragement for us. We need to encourage our students with their learning, but we, as teachers, need encouragement as well, especially from others who are going through similar situations.
As the others have said you can’t have one without the other. Respect and discipline go hand in hand. I feel that consistency also goes with the two. If you don’t have consistency you will lose the respect and if you lose the respect the discipline problems will come. Making sure what is expected up front is very important, if the students do not know what is expected they will not understand why they are being disciplined and will lose any respect they might have had. Some of the students that I have worked with that had behavior problems said what made a difference for them were that I would listen to them. They would still have the consequences’ and were not allowed to yell but I would empathize. When running a whole class room you don’t have the opportunity to always have that time. The teacher that I work with now I watch her and she will have me watch the class so she can talk to and listen to what has happened and this seems to help the students feel like they are being heard and it makes it a teachable moment to show them different ways they could have handled the situation.
ReplyDeleteI also feel that the boys were not listening because it was an empty threat, plus the fact that they need a way to get all that energy out. When I travel with my kids when they were young we built in stops to play and burn up energy. This was a tremendous help
Patty,
ReplyDeleteI also agree with you and many of our other classmates that respect and discipline go hand-in-hand. Without discipline, you cannot learn respect. Not only does discipline teach respect, it also helps develop self-control and empathy for others.
I also believe that in order to have respect for others, we need to have respect for ourselves; and to be capable of obeying and accepting discipline from others, we need to develop self-discipline.
I like what Becky just said. You need to give respect to get it in return. When you respect the opinions of others they will respect you. When you respect your students and use fair discipline to go along with their behavior they will have respect for you since they know that you are sticking with everything you say. If we don't respect ourselves how do we expect others to respect us. If you had out a punishment the student should accept it and learn from their mistake
ReplyDeleteI feel the correlation between respect and discipline just as others have stated, it takes discipline to gain respect. Students will not just respect a teacher going into their classroom. It’s after setting the pace and expectations of the classroom that children who follow those rules and expectations begin to show respect. Sometimes this takes longer for some children.
ReplyDeleteAs I was reading down I saw that Leslie stated that we would be surprised at the number of people that don’t know common courtesy, however this is something we can teach in a classroom but I feel depending on the grade of course children should already be working at this at home. This could be because I currently work at a pre-school and we have one year olds that say please, thank you, want to hold doors, etc and it they continue to grow more courtesy at our center by saying excuse me, asking to be excused, and asking if someone needs help. I know not all children are like this but that solo, I feel as a lot to do on how they have been brought up. I do feel that the children that are learning these things though do have a better sense of respect for their teachers and parents.
Brittni I also agree with what you said. I’ve been taught my whole life that if you want to be respected you must respect your peers and elders. I think this is something very important that should be remembered daily when making choices and how the outcome will effect us.
I agree with in order to get respect you have to give respect. The class should come up with respectful behavior and disrespectful behavior first thing. There should be clear consequences decided from the beginning if someone breaks rules. For example...after several verbal reminders we use think time. Children have to sit away from their group and think about the choices they are making. We then talk to them about the behavior we want at the activity we were involved in and they go back to their group. I believe children respond better to positive discipline. Instead of pointing out negatives in the classroom you should always point out the positives. For example..."Heather is being a good role model by sitting criss cross and raising her hand instead of shouting out." The children will then look to Heather and realize this is respectful behavior and want to show the teacher they can do this too. If a student continues to shout out or other behavior not wanted I would repeat the direction again. " I called on (so and so) because they raised their hand" or "That was a good idea you had but I can't call on you until you raise your hand" If it continued they would use think time and I would talk to them one on one after a few minutes. Positive classroom management is the key to getting your students to respect you and the other students in your classroom. Children do not always know what respect is until you model and teach them how to be respectful.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Christine in that you need to be patient, but more importantly, consistent in your actions concerning discipline. Students will recognize when you are steady and consistent in your decisions and most likely won't push once they know the limits and that you won't waver in your discipline.
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